Last night was simply great.
In the first half, Mark said that he basically was trying to start a conversation. And, in order to shift that conversation, you have to shift people's perspectives. The perspective he wishes to 'shift' is seen in this new summary phrase that he offerred:
...More broadly Human because of the Gospel, than more narrowly Christian because of Tradition...
Among several other things, he talked about the 'works of the flesh' and the 'fruit of the Spirit' being 'non-religious', which of course, re-implies the above summary phrase and provides one example of how Mark's perspective plays out in Scripture.
Also, much time was given to the subject of gifting. Starting with another review of William Wilberforce, and ending the first half with a story of a school teacher, Mark demonstrated the need for us (humans gloriously made - and Gifted - in the image of God) to know, embrace and make us of our giftings!
The 2nd half consisted of the touching and truly inspiring story of Mark's son, Luke (which I will not dare try to summarise as it would not do justice to the atmosphere which the telling of it created in the room...).
I appreciated Mark's closing. There is no question about the need to hold the creator/creation distinction in it's proper place ('When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained, what is man that You take thought of him...? Psalm 8:3-4 NASB), but we must also know the value, dignity - and yes, even glory with which we have been made ("...Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty! Psalm 8:5 NASB).
Please do share your thoughts!
8 comments:
Yea last night is, simply, wow.
I don't know whether this is because what Mark said just happens to touch on the things that I have been pondering quite a bit lately (should I continue with my chosen career path - I've just graduated and start working 1/2 year ago, is this what I wanted to do for the rest of my life etc);
or it has simply been too long since I last engaged in such refreshing, stimulating, exciting and liberating theological dialogue (last time was when I did a theology paper at Auckland Uni).
It is so good to know that I'm not alone in this wanting to break away from the traditional, modernist, evangelical thinking (although I was quite encouraged when I read Brian McLaren's "New Kind of Christians" books, but I guess that's still different from actually being in such a crowd).
I was just so touched when Mark talked about the choice was imposed to Wilberforce is a false choise and a needless torment. It reminded me of how I'd constantly whip myself for having some more 'liberal' and 'radical' thoughts (and some of them coincide with Mark's words again! - like I've been having some questions about the traditional teaching on eschatology), fearing that I'm blaspheming or worse that I'm letting the devil putting thoughts in me (as idiotic as it sounds, it comes when you've been around some more charismatic preachers and fellow Christians)
Whilst feeling so very stimulated and encouraged from Mark's talks, I also felt really saddened and weary at the same time. Being that I find it so hard to share most of these stuff with the Christians around me. So in the past I would swing between the two extremes of feeling angry/frustrated and feeling alone and eventually doubting the validity of my thoughts (so that bit on false humility is so, ouch, right on the dot too :P).
It's quite funny how when Mark asked about the 'moment(s)' when I felt most alive. 'Cause such moments lie precisely in doing stuff like this - when I'm engaged in stimulating dialogues on ponderings about God and all that about Him - which for me covers theology as well as books, movies, (pop) culture, etc.
Although I still couldn't figure what that implies as to who God makes me to be. But I suppose the musing and pondering about this would be another mind-bending/heartbreaking exercise which is the point/fun of it all.
Anyways, thanks for putting up this blog and providing a place for us to think & share!
I hear ya Judy.
I often struggle as well with the tension of having ideas that I'm excited about or interested in (on one hand) and not feeling able/welcome/allowed to share them with others for fear of being called a 'heretic' (on the other hand).
Personally, I'm thinking it's better to 'live in the tension' than escape or ignore it, though. Helps me stay both challenged and sharpened. I guess we really do need each other! :)
I also am nervous that some really essential things can get lost in the 'search', but at the same time, it's crucial to let people grapple with issues, rather than 'demand' they believe them, right?
Amen on the cruddy eschatology that is so popular now-a-days! When will 'left behind' ever be 'left behind?' :)
Anyways, thanks for the comment!
-d-
dale,
yea I know what you mean.
Although from time to time I'd moan about it.
But truth is I somewhat enjoy this on-going struggling and grappling with the various theological issues. Personally I reckon a faith without some serious struggling, questioning and self-doubting is not a real faith (hopefully this won't sound too pretensious/harsh). For me, it is only through this question-> struggle-> reaffirming that I am able to make this faith my own, rather than as prescribed by my parents/pastor/friends. There are times when the questions can become real tough & personal and I would feel like I'm losing the plot completely and flip. But all these make up the journey we called faith right? Ain't worth as much without the struggle, confusion and pain I suppose?
I never read the Left Behind series as I've never been particular keen on Christian fiction. But figured out a thing or two about it through McLaren's 'The Last Word and the Word After It'. BTW awesome book - that's what got me thinking on the whole eschatology thing. And I remembered myself going like this: wow these ideas are really, really fascinating (like: would Jesus really be enjoying 'the party upstairs' with some whilst others suffer in eternal blaze 'downstairs', what if the last word is not hell, what if there is another word after it: grace, love, reconciliaiton, restoration...), and also being somewhat scared for entertaining those thoughts for they feel somewhat too radical and too "out there".
But then I guess every generation needs some theological pioneer exploring the frontiers of our beliefs. Not saying all of these are accurate or should found their way amongst the dogma, but they are imperative if we want our faith to continue to be relevant and serve as 'good news' to the poor and oppressed, rather than a pool of stagnant water. Just like back in the days of the movie 'Amazing Grace', some people dare to think & say that the slaves are also the bearers of the image of God. Views and thinkings that we have come to accepted as 'truths' or regarded as old, boring dogmas probably ain't quite so when they are first coined. And whenver I reflected upon ideas like Imago Dei, Good Creation, etc, I just feel so darn proud about what they have achieved and excited about what they are yet to achieve.
It has indeed been forever since I last had the opportunities to talk as I like about a lot these so I kind of got carried away. Hope you won't mind :P
Hi Judy,
I totally agree with freedom to explore things, and Can't agree more that by questioning/struggling/etc. we do 'own' our belifs more.
I haven't read that one by Mclaren. While I do believe in final and permanent loss for those that have rejected God, (of course, many view of 'hell' are more based on Plato or Dante's inferno) I would never think less of you for re-asking those huge questions.
Cheers!
-d-
Hi Judy. Hi Dale. I'm so heartened by your conversation. Last Monday night seems to have triggered quite a response. Probably the most of any night in any of the three Wineskins series. I hesitated to tell mine and Luke's story wondering if people would think it was a distraction, an excursus away from the main plot. Not at all. Many people have told me it was exactly the opposite. I am hearing them say that in some way the 5 sessions of broader theological musings (21 if you count the first two series) came together in that story: the bigger conversation of being human, the linking of our stories to Jesus' story, the outworking of grace that means I can delight in who God has made me even as I know my own profound weakness and failing, the sense of the double knowledge at work ('Knowing God, knowing self; knowing self, knowing God'), and more. I am so looking forward to this Monday. I hope to bring this together around the double knowledge, trinity and image and go on to suggest how art, music, architecture, theatre, sport, environment, work, suffering and more opens us to the richness of life, of ourselves and of God made known in Christ. Hope to see you there.
Go for it Mark...
-d-
Hi. I've just watched the third of the Wineskin talks tonight on DVD. Moving stuff. I can't imagine what the atmosphere in the room must have been like - my eyes were not dry.
Delightful.
Lounging in Sydney,
Adriaan
Thanks for stopping by Adriaan!
Take care over there 'accross the ditch'!
-d-
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